tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC October 18, 2013 9:00pm-10:00pm EDT
special thanks to gavin for this snazzy bracelet and your father is amazing. good evening, rachel. >> you get swag on your own show? >> gavin hooked me up. check it out. >> i'm doing it wrong. thanks for joining us. it has been 18 straight days now, 18 straight shows in which the lead story on this show has been the government shutdown and the debt ceiling and shuddering republican party implosion. 18 nights in a row that has been our lead story. and of course, that story is not over. we are going to have more on the shuddering. but tonight, tonight, after 18 nights, we do not begin in washington. tonight, we begin in a little courthouse in topeka, kansas. we begin with this. >> do you believe abortion should be made illegal? >> do i myself?
yes. one other comment about that. i'm also antimurder and i put a lot of murders away, too. i follow the law. >> that was phil klein. the former republican attorney general for the great state of kansas and he was not in that courthouse that day to put away a murderer. he was there because he was on trial. he had been holed up on ethics charges for professional misconduct. and that drama came to an end today when the kansas supreme court finally took away his license to practice law. they took his license and he was the attorney general of that state. the real drama in this case has always been that this phil klein event has been taking place against the backdrop of just
incredible violence in kansas. in 1993, this woman walked up to a kansas doctor and she shot him. shot him through both of his arms. he had been attacked before. his clinic had been fire bombeded, but in 1993. they shot him. he came back to work the next day bandaged up. he said he thought it was important to show his face, that he would not be intimidated. the woman who shot him went to prison for shooting him in 1993, but the radical movement saw her as a hero for having shot him. while in prison, she got more than two dozen visits from this guy. scott roeder. he told a writer it was during those visits, that he started to think maybe he should be the guy to finish off what he had started. shelley shannon tried to kill dr. tiller, but scott roeder decided he should be the one to
finish the job and in may 2009, he stalked dr. tiller at his church on a sunday morning, entered the church and killed him and the police pulled scott roeder over that morning after the killing, he had a post it note on his dashboard with the name and number for the policy director of operation rescue. now, it's scott roeder who's in prison in kansas. this time, for having killed dr. tiller and now, the person who has struck up a jailhouse friendship is him is a kansas woman named angel. she told the associated press that just as the woman who shot george tiller had been inspiration to rod roeder, roeder is now an inspiration to her. she said quote, as soon as i heard about it, i realized he was able to accomplish what those of us in the pro-life movement were not able to accomplish. we put in millions of dollars and were butting our heads up against the wall. we were not getting anywhere, but with one move, meaning the
murder, scott roeder was able to accomplish what we had not been able to do. so, he followed his convictions and i admire that. that woman is now the subject of a justice department lawsuit for making what the government says are death threats against another abortion doctor, a doctor who tried to offer services at dr. tiller was killed. she sent this letter to the doctor. it said in part, if dr. tiller could speak from hell, he would tell you what soulless existence you are considering. thousands of people are already looking into your background. they know your habilitates and your routines. they know where you shop. they know who your friends are and what you drive and where you live. you will be checking under the car because maybe today will be the day someone places an explosive under there.
that doctor never opened up to provide abortions. in part she told us on this show it was hard to find a place to open the clinic given there is a whole movement of people in kansas who have proven by their anchors that they will fire bomb you and shoot you if you open up a clinic like that and they continue to threaten that is what they will do and in the face of that record of murder and violence and intimidation in kansas, from abroad-based american perspective, in kansas, the law has not always been on the side of people getting killed and threatened and terrorized because in kansas, there is a strain of the conservative movement that has tried to put law enforcement on the side of the people who are doing the killing. not the side of the people who need protecting. here's how republican phil klein ran for office in kansas in
years of george tiller had been fire bombed and had been shot before they finally killed him. >> heard of george tiller? he performs late term borkabort in wichita. >> i want to first tell you who does not endorse attorney general phil klein? abortionist dr. george tiller does not. >> republican party antiabortion activists phil klein got elected kansas attorney general for the whole state in 2002. the complaint by the state bar, that explains how just after he was elected within weeks of him taking office, phil klein met immediately with his top staff to try to figure out how to use the power of the state attorney general's office in kansas to persecute dr. tiller. shooting did not work.
fire bombing did not work. see if he could come up with the way to use the law. phil klein ultimately brought dozens of charges. misdemeanor, felony charges. none of which were sustained. they were all either thrown out or the clinics were acquitteded. nothing he tried to do in court stuck. but in the course of bringing those charges, phil klein and his office used fake statistics and false testimony and just flat out lying to kansas courts and grand juries to subpoena patient medical records from kansas abortion clinics. they got people's medical records to try to protect patient's privacy, the records did have the patient's name's redacted, but in his zeal, unredacted the records. he and his staff staked out the staff in the parking lot.
they followed his patients, employees and visitors back to their cars and they'd take town the license plate numbers to try to get names and addresses. they went to a hotel that was nearby to the clinic and subpoenaed the records from visitors who stayed at the hotel so they could match the names of people staying at the hotel by cross referencing to put names. having thus pieced together records of women's abortions including names and addresses and phone numbers and identifying nati identifying information and dates of thaf abortions and the exact medical histories, having pieced all that together, he then made copies. and moved those records from the attorney general's office to the open garage of one of his employees to another guy's car. to a local county district attorney's office. at one point, his employees took the full private medical files of a whole bunch of named patients and spent a whole bunch
of time there copying them and leaving them lying around in public. eventually, they ended up in a rubber maid tub in a staffer's apartment for more than a month. in the middle of this, he lost his job at ka kansas state attorney general. to his next job, he took those private records, the ones he'd be able to get -- is that he lied to state law and said that state records had been under lock and key. not only were they not only under lock and key, they ended up on fox news channel. study the tape of that specific night of the o'reilly show seems to have been off the earth. you can't find the tape of it.
bill o'reilly somehow obtained all of those kansas women's medical records that had been knocking around in rubber maid tubs in phill kline's office. they made their way to fox news. today, he lost his license to practice law by order of a unanimous ruling from the kansas supreme court. he is totally unrepentant. teaches law at a school founded by jerry falwell. now that he has lost his license to practice law, professional misconduct, they say that has nothing to do with what he's able to impart to conservative law students in virginia. they are still very happy with
him. what remains the most amazing thing about this chapter in bloody, bloody kansas is the blurring of the line there between the kind of normal antiabortion politics that are essentially mandatory in the republican party now and the radical offshoot of those policies. that seeks to enforce the antiabortion doctrine called murder and violence. he was breaking the law and stealing medical records to bring trumped up soon to be thrown out charges against dr. till egg to try to put him out of business, but almost every day of the trial was scott road e, the guy who would go on to kill george tiller. he was there at the trial. scott roeder's jailhouse friend is now threatening to kill the next abortion doctor in kansas, the lawyer defending her and her justice department case, that's him on the left. he's the same lawyer who
phill kline appointed to be his special prosecutor. the taxpayers of kansas did not just pay to defind him of these ethics charges, they paid the legal charges. one of the protesters laying down in front of police cars trying to shut down dr. tiller's clinic in the '90s. when he got his own day in court, when the hearing started against him, courtroom filled up that day with his core supporters. the base for hard line antiabortion politicians like him. >> we want to make sure these people know there are people watching them and they're accountable to the public. >> she was there. that day that the hearing started against kline in topeka.
that is the person who's name and number were on the dashboard of scott roeder's vehicle the morning he murdered george tiller. she herself has done time for bombing clinics. she's there to support kline all the way. joining us now is legal coordinator for the feminist majority corporation. thanks for being with us. >> thanks for having me, rachel. >> we have been following the saga of phill kline in kansas. does he represent a part of mainstream antiabortion politics that has flirted with the violence act? >> well, i think he is not mainstream and he has cozied up to and been a member of a group, an enclave within kansas that
has really created -- they are extremists and i would say he is an extremist. what we see today is really a moment of justice for him and a moment of justice in kansas finally. here he is, his license is suspended. i wish they had permanently disbar disbarred him but at least for three years, his license has been suspended. what he did using his position of authority was fan the flames of extremism and scott roeder himself cited his acquittal, the acquittal of george tiller against the totally baseless charges as the reason why he then proceeded to murder him. and you know, by fanning the flames with these completely baseless, unfounded bogus
criminal charges over and over again, someone like a scott roeder or perhaps someone like angel are led to an act of violence. >> you really do a lot of work focusing on the really radical side of the movement. what's the status of that part of the movement now after scott roeder? while we're seeing so much mainstream antiabortion legislature being advanced all over the country, how is that affecting the really violent side? >> well, you are seeing wide scale encouragement and imboldened extremists in state after state. where you see a trapped law that's been passed, whether it's virginia, mississippi, alabama,
texas, right now, we've got a situation in albuquerque that's very concerning. you have the extremists now feeling as though they have the run of the place. it's their day so they can go in, not only intimidate and terrorism, but they have the backing of a legislature. or an attorney general or a governor who's going to be saying things and further fanning the flames that create climate in which violence is possible and takes place and is encouraged. >> what's the situation in albuquerque that you say you find so concerning? >> well, you know, interestingly enough, rachel, after right before or shortly after dr. tiller was murdered in 2009, a couple named tara and bud shaver, moved to wichita to
intern with the, with operation rescue, with cheryl sullenger, who was a convicted federal fel felon, domestic terrorist, really the ring leader of a group that attended to bomb multiple clinics in san diego. they moved to wichita around the time of dr. tiller's murder and spent a year working with troy neuman and cheryl, studying their storied tactics of terror and intimidation and then were sent to albuquerque has missionaries for operation rescue. there, they set up shop and there, they are now relentlessly pursuing providers in that city and they've essentially declared it's a new ground zero because several of dr. tiller's colleagues moved to albuquerqua.
they didn't move. they established a practice there with another physician and they have managed to put on the ballot an antiabortion ballot measure within the city that will be in a special election there in albuquerque on november 19th, which would be an abortion ban from 20 weeks on. no exception to the health of the mother. no exceptions for rape and incest. no exceptions for really the life of the mother and they are in august, they convened a leadership counsel that brought in all these from all over the country to have a boot camp training of sorts of young adults to go out and carry out their tactics, but also we believe behind the scenes, an excuse for a leadership meeting to plan the next steps in their campaign against the providers in that city and to further the,
their campaign of terror and intimidation nationwide. not just in albuquerque, but we're seeing a larger assembly of these groups. >> we're going to have you back to talk more about albuquerque. we're -- has been pursued there and it's linked to that larger national movement. it's really important stuff. legal coordinator for feminist majority foundation, thanks for being here. >> thank you. >> the big election in new jersey is over. also, it's just around the corner. really big news about marriage equality in new jersey. the women who would be trying to unseat the antisame-sex marriage governor, chris christie, is
going to join us here tonight. please stay with us. my asthma's under control. i don't miss out... you sat out most of our game yesterday! asthma doesn't affect my job... you were out sick last week. my asthma doesn't bother my family... you coughed all through our date night! i hardly use my rescue inhaler at all. what did you say? how about - every day? coping with asthma isn't controlling it. test your level of control at asthma.com, then talk to your doctor. there may be more you could do for your asthma.
the republican on republican warfare after that collapse is now basically open and pretty nasty with everybody endorsing primary opponents against everybody else, sending out fund raising letters blaming their own side. it has been a tough week for republicans in this country, but even though it has been hard for all of them, spare a particular thought for old ken cuccinelli. the republican candidate in virginia. every republican in the country has had a bad week, but cuccinelli's has been like this. >> such a stark contrast between cuccinelli and his opponent. >> just say his opponent. >> i'll try again. there's such a stark contrast between ken cuccinelli and his opponent -- okay. terry mccaskill -- mcauliffe. okay. all right. there's such a stark -- there's
such a stark contrast between -- tongue twisted here. long day. there's such a stark contrast between -- try it again. okay. there's such a stark contrast between ken cuccinelli and terry mccastle. mcauliffe. okay. his opponent. okay. okay. >> yeah, that's what the republican campaign's been like this week in virginia and that's not half of it. it gets worse. hold on. sfx: birds chirping sfx: birds chirping
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new jersey got really famous all over the country the year i was born because bruce spring teen's record was called greetings from asbury park. it was 1973 and soon, everyone knew about a certain place in jersey. it was sort of a kaying shore of the thriving resort town it had once been. by the 2000s, asbury park had bounced back and a big part of the town's revival was an influx of gay and lesbian residences and now, as a first thing monday morning, maybe event midnight sunday night, at least some of those gay couples from asbury park are going to be tieing the knot. this morning, the clerk's office
there starting accepting marriage license applications from same-sex couples. they kept the office open late tonight. they are opening up special tomorrow to keep processing those applications. 72 hours later, they can be married. among their individual families, what they're about to do has proved a pretty effective tactic in the movement of overall marriage equality. just get married. it has an effect. in 2004, gavin newsome just announced he would start marrying gay and lesbian couples at city hall. nothing in the laws of california had changed to make that a legal thing to do. he just decided to do it because he felt it was right. he thus put a turbo charger on the move towards marriage equality. that same year, jason west decided he would do the same
thing. he performed dozen of same-sex marriages before he was issued a restraining order and charged with a bunch of misdemeanors. that happened well befr the landmark supreme court decision. since those rulings, local officials all over the country have just decided to do what gavin newsome did. they decided to just go ahead and start marrying people, whether or not the laws in their states had caught up. so, in july, the f the court clerk in montgomery county, pennsylvania, who started issuing marriage licenses from his office. a year later, it was some clerks in new mexico and just up and marrying people, the house made a surprisingly effective tactic and that's because once you have married same-sex couples in your state or city, it's hard for anybody to say for those
nonhypothetical flesh and blood real couples with real stories you can meet and look in the eye, it's hard to look at those folks and say there's a state interest interested in unmarrying you. starting this sunday night, 12:01 a.m., gay and lesbian couples in asbury park and newark, elsewhere around new jersey, will be getting married. in the wake of the supreme court striking down the defense of marriage act this summer, it was a lower court in new jersey that ordered. chris christie, the state's republican governor, has appealed that ruling. he's been fighting it tooth antd nail, but today, the new jersey supreme court weighed, saying go ahead, marriages start monday. new jersey's new democratic u.s. senator freshly elected this week, cory booker, says he will be officiating weddings at the very minute it becomes legal to
do so. he says he has been holding out officiating any weddings up until this moment when he could do so for any new jersey couple. in contrast to the senator elect, new jersey's governor, chris christie, is totally opposed to same-sex marriage. it was he who pushed the lower court's ruling to the supreme court. last year, he personally vetoed a marriage equality bill. chris christie is the thing standing in the way of same-sex couples getting married in new jersey. he has been. for the moment, seems like he's not doing to have a choice in the matter. governor christie is definite the favor to win september 5th. his democratic challenger released her first political ad today taking straight aim at governor christie on a whole bunch of issues including marriage. >> the only one actually running for governor, chris christie's got his sights set on the
republican presidential primary. that's why he defunded planned parentho parenthood, vetoed gay marriage and stands with the gun lobby. with our poverty rate at a 50-year high, christie rates taxes on the working poor, but won't ask millionaires to pay another dime. he wants to be president. i want to be your governor. >> as of monday morning, sunday night, same-sex couples will start getting married in new jersey no matter christie's position. question is, the conservative stance on marriage might hook him in the presidential process in 2016, but he's got to run right now. he's got to run in the next few weeks. how is it going to play with the folks back home? is marriage equality becoming a political liability for him? joining us is barbara buono.
thanks for being here. i know you are a supporter of marriage equality. what do you think this, how important is this ruling in the supreme court? >> it's ground breaking and i have to tell you, i'm jubilant. it was a very emotional moment for me. my daughter is openly gay, my baby, who lives in california. i called her and said, tess, she said, wait a minute, are you telling me new jersey, you can get married if you're gay. i said, yeah, you can come home now. >> christie was asked if he had a gay child, what he would tell them. he said he would love his child, but it would not change his mind. did that surprise you? >> a sharp intake of breath at the moment and i thought at the moment that our gay brothers and sisters don't need a hug. they need to be treated as equals. >> in terms of this race against christie, it's an uphill battle. the polling shows how much of an uphill climb it is.
i think you're doing your dammest with the hand you have been giving. your stance on gay rights versus his is something you feel is one of your bigger assets. >> it's broader than gay rights. this governor has the social views that mirror the people in the corn fields of iowa, but not new jersey. this is the first one that's anti-choice and he thinks that politicians should make our health care decisions and not us. he's antipay equity. he vetoed a pay equity bill and called it -- he's far to the right -- a lot of new jerseyians don't know that. a lot of those polls, a lot of people don't know he's antimarriage equality, anti-choice. that's why it's so important we went up on tv today. >> in terms of the way the
governor has made structural decisions around this race, it is weird that the special senate election in new jersey was held on a wednesday just a couple of weeks before we're already having an election any way in your race against him. holding a race on a wednesday. spending that extra money. what are the practical consequences? >> it's not weird. the governor has a history of using his office to advance his own political interests. he did it with this senate race. less than three weeks wfr before our race and disenfranchised voters. the lowest voter turnout for a general election in new jersey history. so i think it has consequences in the sense that people may be confused. there were certainly people that showed up, that sent in their absentee ballots for november and september in the same envelope. >> what's your strategy between now and november? obviously, you want to let people know about the parts of
chris christie's record that you think the state doesn't fully appreciate. what should we expect? >> you know, it's not really going to be any different than the last six months. difference is we'll be able to communicate it on a broader scale. it's great to come on here. the it's great to have an ad, people will know where chris christie is not just on social issues, his economic plan such as it is really has enriched the wealthy and crippled the middle class. >> running against chris christie for new jersey governor. thanks for your time and keep us posted. going to be a fascinating race. you are allowed to sneak that in, now, i have to give chris christie's have to look it up first. be right back.
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80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. he was a matted messiley in a small cage. ng day. so that was our first task, was getting him to wellness. without angie's list, i don't know if we could have found all the services we needed for our riley. from contractors and doctors to dog sitters and landscapers, you can find it all on angie's list. we found riley at the shelter, and found everything he needed at angie's list. join today at angieslist.com i looked it up. our guest tonight was the democratic candidate running for
governor of new jersey against republican chris christie. and as i was saying thanks to the senator, she did the thing that all good candidates should do and she snuck in the name of her website. but because she did that, now, i have to say in the interest of fairness, what is the website for her opponent just in case you didn't have it off the tip of your tongue. it is christieforng.com. she did the show, you should do the show. we would have such a good time. did you know more coffee drinkers
one piece of information you need to be able to appreciate what happens in this tape. the name of the democratic candidate for governor in virginia is terry mcauliffe. okay? >> there's such a stark contrast between ken cuccinelli and his opponent, terry mc -- >> just say his opponent. >> i'll try that again, okay? all right. there's such a stark contrast between ken cuccinelli and his opponent -- there -- yeah. let me, one second here. okay. terry mccaskill. >> mcauliffe.
mcauliffe. okay. all right. there's such a stark -- let me try it again. there's such a stark contrast between -- let me try it again. tongue twisted here. been a long day. there's such a stark contrast between -- let me try it again. okay. there's such a stark contrast between ken cuccinelli and terry mccastle. >> mcauliffe. >> okay. >> can't she just do it? never really workeded. that was a ken cuccinelli for governor campaign event in wood bridge, virginia this week. mr. cuccinelli had campaigning for him a reality show family famous for having a very large number of children. they have i think it's 19 children, that couple. ken cuccinelli who's running for governor himself has seven children. he has also campaigned the outlaw common forms of contraception in virginia, including a birth control pill.
so it makes sense to have the 19 kids guy campaigning for ken cuccinelli. even if in practice, it turns out to be a -- virginia republicans in general are having a tough time. this year, they engineered a way to pick their statewide candidates at a convention of party delegates in stead of in a primary, so they ended up with a slate of candidates who are now losing all their races really badly. ken cuccinelli this week had to face the 21st straight poll in a row that shows him losing the virginia governor's race. he is such a sure bet loser in that race at this point they're trying to drag other candidates down just by tieing them to him. >> if you think ken cuccinelli would take virginia in the wrong direction, wait until you meet his attorney general candidate. like cuccinelli, he believes pligs should dictate our most personal decisions. they cosponsored a bill together to ban the birth control bill
and outlaw abortion even in cases of rape and incest. together, a dangerously wrong turn for virginia. >> the republican attorney general candidate in virginia. but the republicans lieutenant governor candidate is maybe even more amazing than either either guy who's running with. e.w. jackson. known as a fire breathing, antigay preacher. kind of guy who says that democrats are anti god and president obama is both a muslim an a communist. that guy, really? no. no. actually, that did not happen. all the records go back to 1973 and don't show bishop jackson has having served any major league or minor league team. possibility that he is like a
freelance assistant man person? but was he the chaplain for the red sox, which is what he says on the campaign trial and his website today? no, he was not. it is not alone. bishop jackson apparently regularly tells the tale of the that his foster family was to poor when he was a kid, they sometimes had to eat mayonnaise sandwiches and as of youngest, he was last in line for the once a week bath in a gal vonized tub. after hearing that, "the washington post" tracked down one of his sisters, who said to the paper, i'm like, what house was he in? she shared the same roof and said the bathroom was on the first floor right beyond the
well stocked kitchen. quote, i never remember missing a meal. barring that cruel twist of being the youngest, the virginia election in two and a half weeks maybe just got more amazing than it already was. >> there's such a stark contrast between ken cuccinelli and his opponent. let me, hold on a second here. terry mcauliffe. okay. there's such a stark -- let me try it again. there's such a stark contrast -- try it again. [ male announcer ] you'll only find advil,
>> yeah, they thought i was going to become a minister. people in the community call me boy preacher. i was preaching all the time. but i must tell you, much earlier, when i was only 7, 8, 9 years old on the farm was my responsibility to care for the chickens to raise the chickens. and we describe in this book -- as a little boy, i would gather all of our chickens together in the chicken yard. and my cousins and brothers and sisters were on the outside of the chicken yard. >> those are lucky chickens. >> i would start speaking, preaching. when i look back, the chickens were bowing their heads. some of the -- this is true, some of the chickens, they would shake their heads. they never quite said amen. but i am convinced that some of
the chickens that i preached to in the '40s, '50s, tend to listen to me much better than some of my colleagues listen to me. [ applause ] >> i know this is a little bit weird, why do you think you like the chickens so much more than the other animals? you weren't talking to the cows? >> no, i didn't talk to the cows. i saw the chickens as -- innocent creatures. >> but how did you see the cows? ha-ha-ha. chickens as innocent creatures. congressman john lewis talking with me wanting to be a preacher as a young boy at the louisville kentucky author forum, a new book called out "march" i interviewed him. when steve was here hosting the show, i had the great honor and privilege of being in kentucky with congressman lewis taping the conversation. one of the things that is nice about being in kentucky is that boy do they love their bourbon
in kentucky. there is the kentucky bourbon trail, distilleries all over the state. for lazy people that don't want to go all over the state, an urban bourbon trail, all over louisville. i had a great time in kentucky. then i came back to work, to the news cycle to find that the biggest heist in the news this week was a bourbon heist which happened in kentucky while i was there. at least uncovered while i was there. somebody stole all the 20-year-old bourbon, regarded as one of the finest, rarest, expensive bourbons in the world if you can find the bourbon in the store, they will charge you $130. you are more likely to find somebody scalping it on line for two, three, four times that price. the distillery that makes the bourbon in kentucky reported that they were the victims of a heist. they think it was an inside job.
somebody stealing the bourbon, one case at a time over a period of months. by the time supervisors realized what happened. dozens of cases were gone to the tune of about $25,000 retail. apparently who ever was stealing it was slipping the odd case or two off the back side of the pallet hoping nobody would notice. and nobody did notice for months. until this week. i swear it wasn't me. a local sheriff will leave no stone unturned in finding the cull pret cu culprit for the heist. if the 20-year-old liquid gold turns up. do not mix night a cocktail. it is so expensive, drink it straight. as a vigil for the stolen bourbon in honor of kentucky and sign of relief that this freaking week in politics is over, how about an old-fashioned. the original cocktail. get a -- sugar cube. i like raw sugar for this. any old sugar cube. soak it in bitters. you add, a little controversial,
but, it makes it easier, actually sort of makes it tastier if you are using a high octane bourbon like we will use here. add a tiny lit of seltzer water, enough so when you use it to mash up the sugar cube with the bitters and the little bit of water you are making it into a syrup. kind of like a goo down there, rather than a granular thing. then very simple. very easy cocktail. add some ice. if you can find bigger ice cubes than this, better off. the bigger the better on this. and then, you find -- you can do this with bourbon or rye. in honor of kentucky and honor of the heist of the papi, we are doing this with bourbon. just two ounces of bourbon on top of what you have already done there. give it one little stir. not a big thing where you shake it or anything. just enough to mix it up. you made the slurry in the bottom into syrup. doesn't take too much at